What’s the Best Genre of Photography for Growing a Business? Carolina Winata Answers

What’s The Best Genre of Photography to Grow a Business With Caroline Winata

Caroline, an Indonesian-born artist who moved to California, discusses how she started her successful photography business, specializing in various genres such as boudoir, seniors, pets, people, and weddings. She attributes her success to her dedication to her craft, her team of great people, intentional networking, focus, and willingness to trust the process and be humble. Caroline also talks about how she uses social media and SEO to promote her business and has made connections with venues and vendors that have been useful in helping her grow. She also loves working with animals and finds peace in doing jigsaw puzzles.

Furthermore, the video also discusses how Caroline and her team focus on providing great experiences for their clients through networking, Facebook ads, partnerships, and social media presence to nurture relationships. They have a Facebook group of 9,000 people, which they use to engage with clients and post fun questions, and they use Tiktok to post stories from behind the scenes. Additionally, Caroline discusses her hiring process and emphasizes the importance of asking tough questions to assess a candidate’s values and fit into the team. They suggest breaking down tasks into smaller components to set employees up for success and to get to know the strengths and weaknesses of each team member. Finally, the video emphasizes the importance of having a team with diverse opinions and values. They share their experience of hiring a single mom who had gone through a bad situation.




About Photography to Profits and Humberto Garcia

Humberto Garcia is the world’s leading photography business growth expert.

Founder of Photography to Profits and high-performance coach to multiple 6-figure photography businesses. Humberto coaches photographers from his special operations military experience and photography sales and marketing experience. After years of high performance in Marine Special Operations and building businesses, he knows what works.

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Humberto Garcia: [00:00:03] Hi, Caroline. Can you tell us who you are and where you’re calling us from?

Caroline Winata: [00:00:08] I am Caroline Winata, but my close friends and my family call me Olin, and I am actually calling from Oahu.

Humberto Garcia: [00:00:17] It’s exciting. So tell us about yourself and just give us like a 32nd rundown of your business. And, um.

Caroline Winata: [00:00:24] I am actually not from Oahu. My studio is not in Oahu. I’m here photographing shoots on location, but my studio is in Sacramento, California, and I photograph mostly boudoir, but also photograph other genres. And I’m originally from Indonesia and spent some time in Singapore and then migrated to California when I went there for college. Um, went there for art school, which there wasn’t any really like art schools back in the day in Indonesia, and then kind of stayed and just started my business and just kind of became more of an American artist. So yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:01:13] So I know you’re extremely artistic. How did that start?

Caroline Winata: [00:01:17] You know, I part of my family is Balinese and Bali is. Everybody there is. Art is just like a part of our life. The village that my mom’s family is from, all the men do woodwork. And so I was always exposed to it. All the women dance. So we started dancing in the temples since we were like four years old. And my family has always been incredibly artistic and just I was really blessed to have that encourage those growing up, but never for it to be a career, right? Because typically Asian kids are like, You can be an engineer, a doctor, a lawyer, and then that’s it. And I went to engineering school first, try to be like the good Asian daughter, and then found out it wasn’t for me. And I broke apart and I went to art school and I broke my dad’s heart and, um, and then just kind of had to do my own thing.

Humberto Garcia: [00:02:22] Uh, how’s he taking that now? You with your super successful photography business?

Caroline Winata: [00:02:26] Well, he, um. He passed about eight years ago, but he was. I think he was, like, initially really shocked at the fact that I could make a, you know, a photo. And back then, I was also a graphic designer, like a real business out of it. And he’s an entrepreneur. So as soon as he was ready to, like, get over that shock and like saying goodbye to his, like, younger little daughter, um, and I also never moved back home. I’m the only one here. My whole entire family’s back there, so I’m kind of like the black sheep that just kind of does whatever she wants to do. Um, but as soon as he was ready to let that go, it kind of opened up for new relationship between us. He was able to give me kind of like business advice. And one of the biggest business advice I’ve ever gotten was from him. So it was pretty cool to still have that like art and business merge together.

Humberto Garcia: [00:03:22] Nice And what do you look forward to the most? Nowadays, I know you said you shoot a couple of genres, but yeah, on Monday, Monday starting. What’s your favorite part?

Caroline Winata: [00:03:32] Oh, my gosh. So much I this is I think for me, it’s like the artist dream, right? That I can get up and do what I love every single day and I’m constantly producing things. And actually, that was the reason why I left engineering school was because I was learning how to be an engineer and I was making things that were made up, but I could never see the things that I was creating or making, you know, because engineering projects are big and expensive. But with art, I can I’m constantly making every day and that’s how I just relate to the world. That’s kind of my oxygen. And so being able to do that with a team that I’ve assembled that are amazing and makes me laugh every day, I’m in the studio with them and I get to meet people from different walks of life and just really be in my flow. And we are very spiritual people in Bali and we really believe in connecting to our greater purpose that our divine assignment as humans are is to find out how we can serve the world. And so for me, my photography is my way of serving my community and the people around me. So it’s pretty amazing that I get to do that. So I’m very, very blessed.

Humberto Garcia: [00:04:50] That’s awesome. I and the cool thing about you is like, you are like a pure artist at heart where, you know, a lot of people, sometimes they get into things for the money and stuff like that and that’s fine. But like I know for my daughter, she any minute of the day, no matter what she’s doing, watching TV, walking around, she always has a pencil in her hand. She’s always drawing. But after you telling me that story about your dad, like I’ve definitely realized, like, while I do want her to learn all the tech things, I do really also want her to, like, get really good at what she does and even even have her training on Fridays and working with my employees to see, you know, how she can apply her skills. But it’s really lucky that, like, you’re really good naturally at it and like, you do a lot of your own graphic design and all your brands have like really stellar branding.

Caroline Winata: [00:05:39] Yeah, I. I in the like. If you live the day with me, I’m constantly think like my partner Josh is always he thought I was always on Instagram on Pinterest playing. But even though it seems like playing, I think I’m constantly like absorbing. I’m, you know, grew up looking at magazines, looking at movies, music videos and kind of like just absorbing everything. And I think that’s something that I’ve learned to do as a kid. And even just like going to museums and constantly exposing myself to learn and beauty, because I think our responsibility as artists is to find the beauty in the world and mass everything and then kind of like spit it out in our own way. So I, I love that. Like it’s just become part of my daily practice, you know, and had my mom to thank to that whatever medium we wanted to pick up. She just kind of let us go with it. Even though we didn’t have a lot of money in Indonesia, she just kind of like, let us do whatever. And she so I have I was raised in a household with a lot of kids. She they my parents adopted a bunch of our cousins. So at any given time, there was anywhere from 7 to 15 children in the house, like it was a big household.

Caroline Winata: [00:06:57] And she let us draw one on one whole entire wall. She just would paint that over once a year to give us a fresh new easel. But she let us just like markers which were expensive pencils, whatever we wanted to do, we can just draw it. So we were always kind of exposed to that. And then the other thing that I’m really blessed with is that in Bali and in a lot of, I think poorer nations and all of Indonesia, we are raised with the notion that our happiness comes when we’re aligned with our divine purpose and what we are supposed to do in the flow. And it’s not in financial terms, you know, in monetary form. So and once you’re aligned with that, the universe will take care of you because you’re doing what the universe is supposed to have. You do like you’re fulfilling your duties as a human. And so my focus has always been that and everything just kind of falls together. So I was never like, I don’t never had this feeling of like, I had to own a big house. I had to own this, I had to own that. It was just a very different guiding principle for me.

Humberto Garcia: [00:08:05] That’s cool. So it’s like more process and journey instead of like the end state. Yeah. So what do you do outside of work when you’re not being an amazing artist?

Caroline Winata: [00:08:17] Um, like if drawing and stuff doesn’t count. Um. I love my dogs. I used to also be a dog trainer. I used to do this sport called Agility where you run with your dog and they jump and they climb and you tell them what to do. I don’t do that a whole lot anymore because that takes a lot of time. But I love being around my dogs and just playing with them. I actually love training animals and getting them to do what I want I think is pretty cool. Like, you know, tricks. And then I believe it or not, I relax doing jigsaw puzzles. Like that’s my mind doesn’t have to think. It just happens. And sometimes I don’t even look at the box. It just. It just happens. So I don’t have to think at all.

Humberto Garcia: [00:09:01] So background in graphic design and all these mediums. When did you know you were going to be a photographer or like, when did you switch that on to make it your profession?

Caroline Winata: [00:09:10] It’s so funny. So like way back when I actually started art school with a photography concentration. And this was before, you know, before digital, this was only film. And I remember going to college, like starting my class in the morning. It was dark, especially in the winter time. I come out of the the dark room and it was dark and I felt like a vampire, almost like I never see the sunlight. And it was starting to just really bug me because being Indonesian, we’re always out, you know? And then I started getting a reaction, a skin reaction to the fixer, you know, the old chemicals and things like that. And I switched to graphic design because I just like the fumes in the darkroom and everything. It just wasn’t jiving right with my body. So I switched to graphic design and it was actually really hard for me to just pick one thing to focus on in terms of art and design, because I love painting, I love drawing, you know? And it wasn’t until years after that I was at a dog competition. I had a digital camera, and I started taking pictures of my friend’s dogs because we would be there for an hour not doing anything, waiting for our next run in the competition. And everybody loves their dogs. Everybody wants photos of their dogs. So I just started doing that for my friends and then then their friend pictures of their dogs and it just like grew. And within two months I remember like there was a competition. It’s like, Hey, can you just come and take pictures of all our dogs and we’ll waive your entry fees for the competition? And then I was like doing graphic design and that and juggling that. Well, that was growing. So that’s kind of how it grew is just kind of more organic.

Humberto Garcia: [00:10:57] What year was that when you were started with the the Dogs?

Caroline Winata: [00:11:01] Oh, my gosh. I think it was like 2000.

Humberto Garcia: [00:11:04] Wow. 2000?

Caroline Winata: [00:11:05] Yeah, maybe like 2000. 2002. I wasn’t done with school yet, you know, And I was still just trying to juggle all this stuff, so. Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:11:15] Okay, so the title of this was We were talking about that movie, Everything all at Once. Yes. So, uh, you explain in the beginning, but like you, most photographers would, like, spend their whole lives trying to, like, just build one of these. Um, but you. I actually went through your profile and there was like 6 or 7 different. There’s boudoir, which you’re exceptional at. There’s seniors, there’s pets, giggle and riot, which is photo booths and of course weddings. So yeah. What order were these built in and Yeah. Tell us about that.

Caroline Winata: [00:11:59] I think well, for sure the pets came first, but it was competitive. Pet photography was for an action and I actually got to travel around America, work with ESPN, American Kennel Club Purina and photograph dogs in competition. And then I started doing weddings because it’s funny. You’re missing one sight, actually.

Humberto Garcia: [00:12:21] Which one?

Caroline Winata: [00:12:23] Brand photos, the branding one. So brand photos by own.

Humberto Garcia: [00:12:29] Is it here?

Caroline Winata: [00:12:29] I don’t even know if I put it on there yet because I was like, It’s too much. I don’t use my Facebook a whole lot anymore. Um, and so from there I started weddings because I missed telling a story. Um. And yeah, that’s the one. That’s a referral. Yeah. And so I started doing weddings from that and then I was doing weddings for a while. I was also traveling around the country doing that, had a lot of fun and. Right about towards the end of it, my dad and my brother and my grandma all died together and I was diagnosed with my chronic illness. I have chronic hep B and I got really sick. And so I kind of like had this like come to Jesus moment, like, what do I really want to do? And I started working with more Women for Boudoir and found that that was really like where my heart was and launched that and right before COVID, which is awesome. And actually it all turned out great, like COVID did me wonders and kept. Pushing that. And then I had women that were working with me and said, You make us feel so awesome after our photo shoot. Can you help us with our daughters? And I have a teen stepdaughter at that time. And so we started doing teens and I was photographing her anyways. And I wanted to help the girls right when they were starting to really confront their bodies and issues as a woman and growing up and teenage years and all this stuff. So that’s how that came about. And then my clients was also, Can you do my headshots and can you help me with my branding photos? Because I’m also an entrepreneur and I love doing that because it kind of really ties in with my branding background and all the branding knowledge I have as a graphic designer. That’s what I actually focused on as a graphic designer was identity systems and building brands. So that’s how all that came about.

Humberto Garcia: [00:14:42] And this is like the complete opposite. Anytime I work with photographers, I’m always like focused on one thing. But I will say they seldomly most don’t ever get to even the proficiency of one of these sites, which is super expensive. Not sorry, like super expensive and very. Yeah, just great work. But tell me about weddings. I know you said you, you know, got sick doing that, but even before we met and before we started, you know, on this, like, you know, marketing journey, you were already like doing really well. Like, what would you attribute that to? Like, you were doing really well. You had, you know, you were charging a great rate. Like, Yeah, how did that how was that journey in weddings?

Caroline Winata: [00:15:23] Honestly, I think what remains true for all my genres and all the things that I do, whether it’s photography or design or anything, or photo booths we didn’t even touch on that is the dedication to the nature of the craft itself and to the story and to the client. So first and foremost, I will say that I’m an artist and an artist at heart. The day that I have to stop creating, I will like fall over and die like I honestly will. And that’s what happened to me in engineering school, right? Like I felt so small and so squished, like I was deprived of oxygen. And for me, when I’m like, creating anything, anything at all, that’s how I breathe. And so even with weddings just remaining really true to my style, my vision, my craft, who I am as a person, who I am as a storyteller and who my clients are connecting with really great people and telling their story and just being a conduit for whatever is supposed to come through me from the universe. And I know that that sounds really weird for a lot of people, but that’s what I in my in my heart, I believe artists do. Like we’re a conduit for the universe to put into physical like form all these things in the world. And whether it’s love or stories or whatever it is, that’s what my focus is.

Humberto Garcia: [00:16:52] Uh, so tell me, like, how did I mean, if I was to guess, I would say, obviously, you know, you’re very dedicated to the creativity, the work, and it speaks for itself. But yeah, how did one problem that most photographers have is like, someone might be extremely talented, but like then they don’t get many bookings or clients or they never get out of like the just creating for fun. So what was, what did you focus on to like really make this, you know, profitable in a career?

Caroline Winata: [00:17:24] Yeah, I think having a great team, especially as you grow, is really important. I’m very, very blessed to have an amazing team of ladies that work with me, and I don’t always think of them as working for me. We’re a team together and I value the input so they are active in the decisions that we make and and they’ve been pretty amazing. Um, one of them was one of our clients, Ellie was actually one of our clients that started doing our calls. Emily is my associate photographer. Kayla has been with me for years. She’s my studio manager. She’s here in Hawaii with us. You know, like Caitlin runs the studio. Brooke helps me with my social media. Marisol is our editor and make we try to keep all our editing in-house. So just having that community driven mindset I think is extremely important. I know that a lot of artists have, and even entrepreneurs I think have a very difficult time letting go and trusting somebody else. But I think just trusting the whole process and trusting that the universe is going to give you what you’re supposed to do and you can build a great community around you. And the fact that if for me, I’m I’m my mission is to empower women through my photography. But it’s not just our clients. It’s also my team, right? And the people that are around me. And so that’s like a huge thing for me. And then just having focus, having a plan and a structured plan, I am you should see my notes like on my phone. It’s filled with like, okay, here’s an idea, Here is here’s how I carry it out.

Caroline Winata: [00:19:05] These are the things that I need to do. My action plan, what we’re lacking, what we’re needing. And so I tend to do that a lot with projects, you know, And in December and January, I’m usually focusing on our marketing campaign for the whole entire year per month per brand. So then I know what we’re doing. I am gotten really good at delegating and trusting your team and trusting them to do the work and not micromanaging and just really having focus. And honestly, above everything else is learning. Like, just be humble. You don’t know everything. There’s no way you’ll know everything. And there’s a lot of people that will know a lot more than you about certain things and go to them for help. And that’s where you came in. And I’ve been working with Ali on your team, and I love Ali. We can clone Ali. We should, because she helps me run my campaigns and executes the marketing side of it. I have no desire to take it on ourselves. And so working with you has been great for marketing as well, you know, and for me, I think, like I always encourage other artists and other photographers to come up with your own campaigns and something that is aligned to your soul, to your branding, to your studio, something that you really believe in, and let that fly instead of just, Oh, that thing has worked for that studio. So I’m just going to do the same thing.

Speaker3: [00:20:30] Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:20:32] How did you where did you find, like most of your weddings and like, original, like, before we met. Like, where was most of your. Yeah. Where was everything coming from?

Caroline Winata: [00:20:42] Yeah, it just all kind of happened so fast. I started really working with venues. I work with wedding coordinators because this was before Facebook ads, really? And, um. I think watching my parents network back home and in Indonesia, where it’s much more word of mouth and learning how to honestly be nice to people, visit them at their studio or at the venue and talk to them, get to know them as people, be authentic and genuine, form real connections, which I love. Like that kind of grew by itself just organically and just working with more and more venues and then learning SEO from the very beginning helped a lot, especially back then, and just building, you know, your blog, your SEO pages and forming even more connections that way. And then when Instagram came about, I use Instagram as a vehicle to connect with more people, connect with the people that I really want to work with and just reach out to them and was like, I love what you do. I love your style of your work and can we work some more? That kind of stuff. So it was a lot of doing.

Humberto Garcia: [00:21:57] So it seems like you’re like super intentional because I know people say, you know, in the Facebook groups they’ll post, yeah, go like network. But you and we’ve even I’ve even seen the behind the scenes of like the packages you send people the amount of like real touchpoints you have. So like how much effort was that to like build those relations with vendors and venues?

Caroline Winata: [00:22:19] A lot. A lot. It was a lot of effort. But I’m also I was blessed with a lot of great friends in the industry and I built the network that way, you know, And I believe in being intentional with everything that you do, who you are as a person, who you want to achieve and accomplish in your life. And I think that also comes from not just being Indonesian, but having a chronic illness. And I was diagnosed with early stage Ms. last year. And so I have to be really strategic with what what I want to do, how I want to use my energy, how to use my time. And so being intentional with is a huge thing and also just manifesting, but not in the wool sense, but it’s like really working hard for what you want and just making sure that comes through and just making zero excuses for yourself. Which doesn’t mean like if I’m tired, if my illness has me like fatigued that day, I get it. But also, like in the end, you still have to get up, you still have to do the work and you’re still going to have to apply yourself and learn and be out there.

Humberto Garcia: [00:23:26] I’m actually curious what is like the just the most creative way you’ve like gotten a partnership or like networked with somebody. Is there anyone like that? You’re super proud of that, Like you thought they were really big or like really valuable and like, somehow you formed some sort of connection with them.

Caroline Winata: [00:23:42] There’s been like a lot, right? Like, so we also my partner, I also run a photo booth company and that became its own beast that was never spent ad dollars on it. That was mostly just on SEO and hugely on networking and just like industry contacts. Um, I, we found this software for photo booth and it’s a pretty complicated software, but it’s really powerful. Um, it helps to know some programming knowledge. So for me it was like fun. It was like another puzzle that I could figure out. And I really wanted to know who was designing the software. And it’s just one guy doing it all and he lives in the UK. And I was like, Well, I’m never going to go there, you know? And I don’t know what was going to happen. And they have Photo Booth Expo didn’t even really know anybody there, but he was coming to speak and I like was relentless. I was like, I want to talk to him. I want to tell him how cool this software is. I want to see what else I can do with it. And kept sending him like emails and little things in the mail. Turns out he’s like a super introverted, super nerdy guy and just, like, tried and tried. And then after his talk, he had to move his stuff from the speaking room to his conference booth. Um, I just got up there and lifted his lights and I said, I’m going to help you. So I, like, carried his stuff back with him and he was shocked. I’m like, Don’t worry about it. I’m just going to help you. And that was my in like all the emails, all the texts, all the messages, it wasn’t any of that. It was me actually being there and carrying his stuff and just giving a damn.

Humberto Garcia: [00:25:34] That’s really awesome. Yeah, it’s something that’s, like, often overlooked. We just think, hey, let’s, you know, let’s do funnels, let’s pay for ads, and like, the money will come flowing in. But like, you know, being, I mean, it sounds like you’re super selfless with a lot of this stuff. And when you make the connections, I feel like while you benefit, the other people probably benefit a lot. Can you talk to us about that? Like, Yeah, why, why, why do people want to network with you?

Caroline Winata: [00:26:01] Um, I think it is human nature to want to get to other, you know, get to know other people and learn from other people. I think everybody has a cool story, and not all of this is not about me, right? It’s like sometimes I’m like and I think it’s part of my spiritual belief and what we’re raised in. This is what I’m meant to do. Like, it’s not about me. This is what the universe is telling me that I’m supposed to do right now, and this is how I serve my community. And that’s something that I wake up asking myself every day is like, how am I going to serve the people around me today? So so in my networking and everything that I do, it’s never just about me. It’s about how I can. How I can just do what I’m supposed to do. Every day. I don’t know how else to explain it other than that. It’s like we’re here with a purpose. And I think with my illnesses given like limited energy, limited time, that has become so much more true for me, too. You know, and everybody has a story to share, and I’m just there for it.

Humberto Garcia: [00:27:08] That’s so awesome. And right now, out of all the genres, like, which one takes up your most time like. Yeah.

Caroline Winata: [00:27:17] Um, so boudoir takes up the most active time, but I am not not spending as much time building that because it’s kind of like an engine that runs. I’m spending more time thinking about the other genres and launching campaigns or perfecting campaigns to see how we can get that off the ground. Um, so it’s kind of that way and it changes from week to week. But even with boudoir, I am still thinking about how we can improve things and how I can improve as a photographer. It’s very important to me. And 2023 focus through all the brands have been the client experience and how to make our clients feel better when they’re in person with us and just the whole process from start to finish. So right now that’s what I’ve been focusing on a lot. Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:28:13] And you would think, you know, you’ve been in business so long, that should already be done. So like, what’s evolving lately?

Caroline Winata: [00:28:21] A who we are as a team, what we want to do and the clients that we got and the messages that I get that it’s like, you know, from the world and from everybody around me and what, what what they’re looking for. And so we’re trying to also house everything on the one collective and make a legacy brand and make photography part of their daily life. For our clients who keep coming back to us for all the different things as well, and just being there for our clients and serving them.

Humberto Garcia: [00:28:54] And I know, you know, you talked about like before, a lot of it was SEO. A lot of it was partnerships. And you didn’t pay too much for marketing. Um, that was obviously very time consuming. What’s different now? Like, do you still do as much of that now that you do are running like paid advertisements? So like, what’s changed? Because you have, you know, heavily leveraged going into paid ads?

Caroline Winata: [00:29:19] Yeah. I think it also depends on the genre itself, right? You know, I don’t think paid ads would work that well for my level of wedding photography because the price point is a little bit higher. So for that we still do networking and for the photo booth, we still do networking. But then for Boudoir and my other different portrait genres, we do a lot of Facebook ads and on Google ads also work well. So just knowing what your target audience is and what your brand is getting really true and real to that helps a lot. Then you know the medium that you want to connect with them in or you know the language, you know the communication. So working with you for my marketing and working with Ali has been amazing for that and really helps kind of like feed the engine and keep it going. And then also just like leveraging our Facebook group and our online community and our social media has helped a lot too. So I think it’s not enough to do one thing right. Like Facebook ads are great. It keeps our leads in, but then we have to, like nurture them. We have to get them to know us. And then so the community and our social media presence has been great for that as well. So how do you like.

Humberto Garcia: [00:30:32] How do you do that day to day? How do you nurture day to day? Like, what’s your thought process? Yeah.

Caroline Winata: [00:30:37] We have a Facebook group. I think it’s at like 9.2 thousand right now and just posing, you know, posting really fun questions on there and and engaging with the clients that way. We are in continuing with our 2023 focus this year with the client experience, we’re having more client events and like in-person events, especially now that we’re moving out of COVID and just making them feel special and just really focusing on that.

Humberto Garcia: [00:31:09] Nice. I will say I had a conversation with Danielle Cesario and she talked about how this year we actually started working together and she’d always been running paid ads similar. She reaches out and she has partnerships with local businesses and stuff. But she said that one thing she realized like she wasn’t doing was like connecting with every person. Like she wasn’t following up through email, she wasn’t messaging people. She wasn’t like she wasn’t going much deeper than like, you know, hey, a couple contact points. And if they didn’t book on to the next. So, like. Right. Yeah. How’s that? How’s that for you? Is it just you doing it? Is it your team? And like, how do you connect deeper with people?

Caroline Winata: [00:31:50] Yeah, it’s me and my team and the whole team believe in the same values. You know, our business values, our company values are connecting with the clients, actually really caring, like authentically and genuinely caring about people, knowing that what we do does make a change in their life, whatever genre it is. And that boudoir can be really powerful. And so going beyond just. Like, okay, you’re both okay. You’re not going to hear from me again, though. Like like that’s not that’s not who we are and that’s not what we want to do. And so I have a pretty good amount of people that come back as clients and or they’ll have me do their portraits or their family portraits. And I think all that, like when you’re building a legacy brand, the only way to do it is to have that connection with people. To have that organic connection. And building a great brand means that you are eliciting an emotional response in people, right? And so any way that you can nurture that is great. So for me, it’s through the boudoir group, the Facebook group itself. And then I’m on TikTok. We try to post the stories, anything silly, anything that happens behind the scenes and the studio is great and oh, hot tip. If you start posting the treats that you love, like the dessert that you love, your clients will bring you those treats. And then if you post your clients, bringing that more clients will bring you more treats. So we end up getting like quite a bit actually. So yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:33:26] For the record, what is that? What’s your favorite treat?

Caroline Winata: [00:33:30] Well, we have like Boba is great, but Vegas is great, but also because of my chronic illness, I’m gluten free, dairy free. Um, eight three. So Josh says that I don’t eat anything with a shadow.

Humberto Garcia: [00:33:46] But that’s funny. What? What is the hardest part about? Yeah, about running your business day to day now.

Speaker4: [00:34:01] What? I don’t know. That’s the hard part anymore.

Humberto Garcia: [00:34:03] No more. What was it? What was it when you were starting?

Caroline Winata: [00:34:08] Try. Learning how to be a good leader is part of it for my team and that is really important to me. My team is actually. The heart and soul of the business. And I now have a hard time saying I want. I do this. I do this because I know it’s a we. You know, so it’s a we do this and gosh, yeah. What is That is a good question. What is this the hardest part now? Maybe just focusing on one thing because obviously I can’t. Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:34:44] And yeah. How do you choose what to work on? What do you what do you focus on lately?

Caroline Winata: [00:34:50] I am a list person. And so I when I write down in my notes when I’m supposed to do it, has timelines as well. So it kind of helps me stay in track. And my studio manager, Kayla, is making breakfast. She’s awesome at helping me keep track of things too. And I tell my clients, it’s like, Don’t talk to me. Talk to Kayla. She’s a mistress that runs everything. I’m just here. I just work here, you know? And so just being able to have that is awesome.

Humberto Garcia: [00:35:21] By the way, I feel like a lot of photographers like, yeah, they might hire some other things, but they might not hire an associate. So how does that work? Pay you less for her? Does she represent like your brand? So does it matter who’s photographing or how does that work?

Caroline Winata: [00:35:37] No, I mean, I think it matters with photographing. And Emily is as much a photographer as I am, and she’s our associate for Boudoir, and I’m bringing on Portraits Associates as well. We’re going to start training a couple other people. And I think that it’s really important for them to embody the values that you have in your business and as your team. You know, like I said, like my team matters to me, so everybody has to like each other and get along. Um, in the studio we sit like, all together, huddled all our desks together. One of my girls said, it’s like a classroom, but it feels like a family. But so the associate photographer, Emily, has a presence in our group. We let people know who’s photographing whom. And so it’s not. It’s not a secret. It’s not just like you just get your boudoir taken today, your boudoir photos taken today, you know? So does that answer your question? Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [00:36:31] Do they have to pay different prices for you or.

Caroline Winata: [00:36:33] Yes, for us? Yes. Because. Because the level of work is so different and Emily is still growing and she wants it that way as well. She doesn’t feel comfortable doing it as like the same pay. And she’s constantly learning. I’m, you know, I’m trying to give her as much feedback as possible. And so to me, when she says I’m more comfortable doing this, charging a different amount, so I have to listen to that, It’s not just about me, right?

Humberto Garcia: [00:37:01] Because she’s charging a different amount only on the front end or back end, too.

Caroline Winata: [00:37:05] On the front end.

Humberto Garcia: [00:37:06] Okay. So she could have sessions where, like, she could theoretically, like, sell more on one client than you did for like.

Caroline Winata: [00:37:13] Oh, absolutely. Because she could be doing better with that client. You know, they could have a better connection. She could just have a magical moment that day. She’s done some amazing sessions where I look at the photos after and I’m like, I want to photograph that woman to them, you know? So, yeah, absolutely. She like, I love her as a photographer and I can’t wait to see her grow.

Humberto Garcia: [00:37:36] That’s really awesome. Um, how do you go about finding employees and yeah, how do you pick who to hire? What lessons have you learned that made you decide that now? I mean.

Caroline Winata: [00:37:47] Part of it was just learning the way you pick employees and how you hire. I think in the beginning, indeed has been great. But then following up with interviews and not being afraid to ask really tough questions in the interviews, I think and having at least two rounds, having the assignment was something that I learned from you and having them do something, you know. But then the interviews, I think is a huge thing and just really asking tough questions. So I have a standard list of questions now. We save it in our Google Docs and we just go through that. And some of it is like, what would your friends say about you? What would your parents say about you? What was the one thing that your parents had to correct you for that kind of like shook you a little bit, but then you got over it. Like something something like that, I think is a hard interview question. And it’s not just what they’re saying to answer it. I think it’s much more their body language and how they’re how they’re thinking, how they’re behaving and like, you know, you can tell kind of like their body language.

Humberto Garcia: [00:38:55] Yeah, I’m I think I’ve gotten 4 or 500 applications in the last couple of weeks. I’ve hired three people in the last, let’s just say 20, 23. And I sometimes I feel bad on the interviews. Like I know I’m grilling them really hard. Um, and I’ll even ask them at the end like, Hey, do you want feedback? Like, really what I think? Yeah. And almost everyone says yes. And obviously I have a background as a marine. I’ve like trained, you know, I have very high standards for the people that work for me. Um, but I have people that like, look great on paper. And then through the interview, they’re, you know, they’re like, Oh, yeah, the last job I worked at, you know, red flags for me are like the last job I worked at. I didn’t connect with my boss. My boss didn’t appreciate it. And to me, those are like really red, big red flags. And the times that I have, like I’ve made exceptions and been like, Well, this person seems really intelligent, You know, they’re going to That was just that one time. No, they’ll come in and like, they’ll drag the whole team down. Excuses for everything. And so now I’m to me that’s way more that’s way more like of a cringe situation where it’s like uncomfortable to like hire somebody and then have to fire them four weeks later. So for me, I’d rather get that like awkwardness out in the front and then maybe they’ll be upset, you know, at the interview or hard, but at least they weren’t processed through our system, didn’t see everything, you know, didn’t have a board for weeks just to be like, Hey, this isn’t going to be a good fit.

Caroline Winata: [00:40:26] Yeah. I mean, I don’t think there’s any way that you can be 100%, like, foolproof, right? There’s always some people who slip through the cracks. But let’s try to keep that number smaller, you know? And for me, I think it’s really important, just like what you said, like ask them those really hard questions, especially when it’s concerning your values because you want them to jive with your team, like your current team, because that’s like an asset. That’s like one of our biggest assets. Like you have a huge team. So, you know, it’s hard. Like when the team is off in a little bit, right? And one person affects another person. So I think being really, really brave to ask people hard questions is a huge deal. But I’m also like, Josh calls me no filter because sometimes I, I love asking awkward questions and seeing how people would react. I love making people feel awkward sometimes. And also, like even in my shoes, I have no like, I have no shame. I’ll ask me stuff. And I think sometimes when you take when you normalize something, when you take the big deal out of something and when you’re asking somebody something, it makes it like, oh, it’s not it’s not a huge deal. You’re taking off the underwear. And I’m going to ask you about your father, you know, so.

Humberto Garcia: [00:41:39] Yeah, that’s really good. So but you are using a lot of. Indeed.

Caroline Winata: [00:41:46] That’s where we post most of our jobs. Yeah. And then, you know, I try to keep an eye out, even if, let’s say I meet somebody in person, I’ll tell them to say like, Hey, go through the process. This is my my date list thing and go through the process because that at least tells me if they can do all the tech stuff that I’m going to need them to understand and they can follow the directions and read and like have a resume. So I’ll still at least try to do that.

Humberto Garcia: [00:42:14] Yeah, I’ve been really lucky. I’ve. I’ve hired a bunch of people I know. And it’s, it’s, you know, a lot of people say don’t hire people like that. But the thing about people I know is like, I know their habits. I know what they’re passionate about. I know how they spend their free time. So I’m getting people that like, I know they love. The biggest thing I’m looking for on an interview is like if you’re a copywriter or a graphic designer, it’s really hard to it’s really easy to fake the funk with just school and, you know, formalities. But when I ask you like, Yeah, like, so who’s your favorite YouTuber in the space? And I know more YouTubers than you in SEO or I know more you haven’t heard of these tools or you haven’t heard of these like courses, you know, and you’re just kind of like, Yeah, I read a book for school. Like I really know that like 24 over seven you aren’t thinking about this or you’re not improving this. You just want a job. Yeah. So it’s been really cool to just get people because I get people that I give a chance that maybe they didn’t go to college for it, but they spend all their free time and prefer those people over. Somebody who like decided they wanted to be an artist at 19 because it’s going to get you a job. I want the person that from ten years old has been like drawing.

Speaker4: [00:43:25] The passion.

Caroline Winata: [00:43:25] Right? You want like somebody with a fire. I think your next graphic design job interview, you should ask them what their favorite font is.

Humberto Garcia: [00:43:34] What their favorite font is. That’s a good one.

Caroline Winata: [00:43:36] And then you can judge the font choices.

Humberto Garcia: [00:43:39] Now, one thing did I hired a kid named Justin. He was working on a page and I had just gone through a revisions. So I’ll ask people like, Hey, like I’m going to share something with you. Tell me what you don’t like about it. And this guy, like, told me everything I liked about it. And then he was kind of like critical about like the landing top part. And he’s like, This doesn’t make sense. And I was like, Perfect. That’s exactly what I thought. And he didn’t have to match me, you know? But the fact that he could, like, give me an opinion, yeah. I was like, This guy’s probably going to work out. So I gave him the hiring assignment. And the other thing with the hiring assignment is the people that do it immediately almost always get hired. It’s not because they do it immediately. It’s just like, that’s their personality. So every person I hired in the last basically, like the last three did it the same day. And Joe, if you know Joel, Joel worked like four hours on it and gave it back to me on like a Friday at 11 p.m. and like I emailed her back at like 1130 and was like, Hey, I’m going to give you a job offer. Just so you know, like it’s midnight on a Friday and I’m out. But it’s the.

Caroline Winata: [00:44:43] Passion, right? It’s like totally the passion. And, you know, and you said a good thing about Justin. I saw his name actually added to the slack. Oh, he does. But it’s also like you want a team that is not just going to be your echo chamber, right? Like I depend on my team for like, okay, so tell me what you think. How is this going to work with your flow? Tell me what you love. Tell me what you don’t like. Like, you know, show me what you’re seeing. Right? You want that feedback and that’s what makes a great team, too. And I think as a leader, you have to be humble enough, not have your pride thing just because you are your team member like disagrees with you in one way. You know, like you want, you want to hear that because then you’re constantly proofing your own stuff against other people so that by the time something goes live, then you’re like, We got all the problems handled, you know? So that constant feedback I think, from your team is super necessary.

Humberto Garcia: [00:45:39] Yeah. And it’s so like I feel like it matches so well the fact that I put everything all at once. And when I wrote that title, I thought of just you. But now, like talking to you, I’m realizing like, number one, you’re still a superwoman, but like, you definitely be able to do 400 different genres if it was just you and like an assistant like you legit have full blown like employees, you have people that you give a camera to, you have people, you have someone do your sales to write.

Caroline Winata: [00:46:10] Parts of it. Yes. And I don’t I don’t need to do everything by myself. Right. Because it’s not about me either. It’s not I’m not like attached to all of that. The whole process by myself, you know, and other people are here to help me get to the place I’m getting to together. So I really my team is a huge part of me.

Humberto Garcia: [00:46:35] Yeah, it’s really cool. We’re actually having like a team retreat next next month. I don’t know if you saw that. I know.

Caroline Winata: [00:46:41] Allie told me because I was like, Allie, are you going to be in Vegas?

Humberto Garcia: [00:46:45] No, I think I might go to Vegas myself. We went we all went to Vegas last year and it was like really cool because we don’t work together in office. Everyone’s remote now, so it’s like cool to meet people and like, Hey, you’re not as tall as I thought you were. Or hey, you’re like, just as cool in person. So yeah, it’s really cool to meet everyone, but you guys all work in the same office.

Caroline Winata: [00:47:08] Everybody except for Ellie. So Ellie is the one person that didn’t go through in. It actually completely bypassed that because she was a client, had a boudoir session, kind of like had that magical experience that changed her life, gave her a lot of confidence, had another boudoir session and just really like took off from there. She her confidence and energy changed from her boudoir session, really changed her life and was able to let her leave. A I’m trying to like be really like, I don’t want to say too much about her situation, but leave her, make her give her the energy to leave a bad situation at home. And and so she was like the living, breathing embodiment. Right. And she was also needing a job that she can do from home because she’s a single mom. Her her kids are still young. And I’m at this point where I know I want to empower more single moms in my life and people leaving situations because that’s also something that I that happened to me. So. There she was. And I was like, okay, the universe is like knocking on my door and throwing her at me and saying, You’ve been saying you’ve been wanting our. Single moms and coming out of these situations for a while now. So you need to actually do it, you know? And so we brought her in as the person that does all the calls. She works from home and we’ll get on Google meet. So that’s Ellie. And then Kayla actually had to move to New York because her husband is in the Army. And so she’s at Watertown. And she left not last year, the year before last. So she’ll just patch in on Google meet.

Humberto Garcia: [00:48:57] Oh, that’s very cool.

Caroline Winata: [00:48:59] We’re not all together, but it doesn’t make a difference, I think.

Humberto Garcia: [00:49:03] Yeah, I do have a question because this is something that a lot of people think that comes up a lot. Whenever people like on the fence with this, they’ll say things like, Well, if you hire people, you need a super non-compete so they can’t steal your trade secrets. And then they’re like super guarded with everything. And one example, one example I had was like, there was a photographer that hired a kind of like a friend. They were like, really cool before, but, you know, they ended up losing the person. And when we looked back, one thing I found, and I find this in a lot of the situations that happen like this is like they try to limit the amount of hours the person works. They try to keep them out of parts of the business so they don’t learn too much of everything. So they can’t like leave on their own. And what I find is like they end up siloing the person. They end up making them feel like they’re not actually part of it.

Speaker4: [00:50:01] And then filling prophecy, right?

Humberto Garcia: [00:50:03] And then it and then it happens because that person’s like, I don’t have enough hours. I am like, shut out of half the business. I don’t have passwords to basic things that I should write, like I.

Speaker4: [00:50:13] Know have a.

Caroline Winata: [00:50:14] Presence. I don’t have an identity, I don’t have any autonomy. They don’t trust me. Like you wouldn’t want to work for somebody that way or with somebody like that. And I think that I know that people do that. But it comes from a place of fear. Right? And you’re almost like what you were saying is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I think that, like, you need to be able to trust your employee. You need to be the first one to trust your employee. Right. And you you I also don’t think you should give them everything at once because that’s overwhelming. And then they can, like have a meltdown and not come back to work. You know, you need to set them up for success and give them the tools step by step. So for me, a lot of that comes back from my dog training. If you’re trying to teach a dog, a left hand turn on a jump, you can’t just expect it to do it in one day. You have to build, you know, the foundations. You have to tell them, how do you turn left? Which foot do you take first to turn left? Like that’s how mechanics work in dogs, right? But you have to break it down to small things.

Caroline Winata: [00:51:14] Give them the building blocks and set them up for success. And then the really important thing, I think is really get to know your team member and know what their strengths are and what their weaknesses are and play up to the strengths. And then ask them also like make them have an active participation in what they want to do and where they want to grow. And so my Caitlyn, who’s in the studio, I asked her like, So what do you want to learn more? And she’s like, I want to learn how to do headshots. And we’re like, okay, that’s great, but you’re going to have to do this and this. You’re going to have to tell people what to do, and you can’t be afraid. So I need you to work on that, you know? And then she’s been watching me and things like that. So I think that that component is very important.

Humberto Garcia: [00:51:54] So with managing a team, there’s always the I was in the Marines, so we use a saying called inspect What you Expect. So tell me, like, how do you uphold the standard? How do you know that? Like if someone’s doing a shoot and you’re not there, that like things are going how you design them to go?

Caroline Winata: [00:52:13] I mean, you have to give them the proper foundation. And like I said, like set them up for success, you know, and give them the credit. And by the time I’m shooting by herself completely without me, she’s had hours of shadowing me, shadowing me, shoot me, shadowing her, me helping her, like right there behind her going, okay, maybe try this and try that. And then also letting her know like it’s not the end of the world. If you mess up on the shoot, we can have her come back and we’ll redo it. It’s okay. Like, it’s like having a child. Like, you still have to have you have to be a parent that is setting your kid up for success. Right. So.

Humberto Garcia: [00:52:54] It’s cool talking to you because obviously you’re a master of so many things and I could probably write this whole book about you and make you the number one case study. But I do want to focus on the last topic, and we talked about your partnerships, your team, just the standard of work you have for yourself. But let’s go back to SEO, because a lot of people, right, they might think either they think it’s so simple that it’s just like putting your name on the settings of your Wix account. And then some people think it’s like the scariest thing ever because it’s technical. So what what was your take on it And like what? Yeah. How did you simplify it for yourself and like what was your everyday like action with SEO?

Caroline Winata: [00:53:36] I think because I started with SEO way back when when SEO was like a thing. So I’ve been able to watch it grow and I’m not like jumping into it with all this knowledge that I’ve learned. So that was my advantage. But also, like anything that is presented to me in the form of a puzzle I love, I love puzzles. That’s why like jigsaw puzzles is a good thing for me. So SEO, for me is like a puzzle and you do little things at a time. You can’t do everything and then have overnight expectations and results, right? Because things like backlinks, it takes time to do that. So even if it’s just like submitting one backlink a day or ten backlinks a week, you know, working on one page a day and like changing your I’m on it. So like changing your image names or changing your attributes or once a week we’re going to write a blog post and SEO that. So having those habits in place, but also having a system and a timeline where it’s okay, once a week we do this once a month we do this, you know, and having that titrate down I think is for me, that’s the simplest process because then I know what my what I need to be accountable for and what my timeline is like day by day and week by week. So I’m like, I’m a big list like task kind of person.

Humberto Garcia: [00:54:53] Yeah. And that habit of like, the cool thing about SEO is like a lot of the times, especially for the base stuff like setting your page title description, I’m not going to say it’s set it and forget it forever, but a lot of it is for at least a long period of time. Um, and when you do the work, once, you know, as long as like the newest things that you bring in, right? It’s, it’s not so much like a 40 hour job a week, you know it might be a little bit to wrap up. Um, but having said that, like with the amount of time that goes by, right, like if there’s a studio owner that owns a website and you know, they have assets on it, they have pages, it’s daunting to start and get it right. But if you do, then all you have to do is like every month just do a little bit, right? Because if you don’t, then two years go by and now you have a pile of like dirty laundry, and now it’s hard. But it wouldn’t have been hard if, you know, you just start with the basics and maybe every every week or every month you just add a little bit more four years later, which a lot of businesses do last, you know, they’re going to be light years ahead of where they were otherwise.

Caroline Winata: [00:56:02] Yeah. And I think it’s you and I share the same philosophy. I remember you a couple years ago saying at least do something. You don’t have to do it perfect, but at least do something because then you’ve at least started that. And I think that’s like for a lot of people and I know a lot of women photographers have this fear paralysis because they get so anxious and they feel like they have to do it to a certain standard. And that’s like, the truth is, you don’t you just have to do something like what you said. And you can’t be paralyzed by that fear and by the anxiety. Well, what if I don’t do it good enough? What if I don’t do this? What if I don’t do that? So it’s coming back from like, that place of fear and that scarcity mindset, right? Like we eventually have to shift to an abundance of like, gratitude mindset because we already have so much. I understand there’s a lot on your plate, but there’s a lot on everybody’s plate. Like life just happens to everybody and it’s what you make of it. And so you just have to set, sit down and do the work that you for the results that you want, you know? And I think that’s something that a lot of people get so paralyzed by that fear. And I mean, I can sit here and be like, well, I’m really sick, so I can’t do all this stuff or I can’t do this or I can’t do that, you know, Or I can say, you know what? Like f all that, I’m still going to have an amazing life. Whatever my doctors tell me, I’ll just deal with it, right? So it’s just that, like that mindset switch.

Humberto Garcia: [00:57:25] Yeah. And I was actually just the I was actually looking at your Google search console and me running ads on Google ads. And for I just see that every click is just worth money, you know, and it seems like SEO is like a free activity and yeah, it doesn’t cost much to do if anything, you know, unless maybe you have some tools or something like that. Um, like it really in dollars and cents. There’s a huge benefit in the sense that, yes, we’re still. Going to pay for ads, but now we’re going to get a lot of traffic, especially with like the long tail. Like high, intense. I was actually, to me, like high intent. It’s kind of like a weird just thought process for people. Like if you’re not in the space of SEO, but like for me, there was a time where I was looking for like a wedding officiant, right? Somebody to like, help me do all the legal paperwork and stuff like that. And I would search and a lot of like the, a lot of like the venues and stuff and wedding planners would have like content on it, but it wasn’t like very helpful or they were like just kind of like gaming the SEO game and like, you know, just trying to get my traffic there. But I would like bounce off. So it was almost like they were doing SEO, but like not thinking about the person that was searching. And then I found a guy that like legitimately had all the information I was looking for, like the requirements. One of the biggest questions was like, how long until I get the certificate back? You know, how much does it cost? What fees, what exactly is like the flow? And like they actually had, you know, like when I looked, they had a relatively like simple site, but they like serve the user and they always had that like just that thought process to me, at least for them, Hey, when somebody searches this, I intentionally want to get my page on this topic so that it’s relevant to them, not just, you know. Right.

Speaker4: [00:59:18] Yeah.

Caroline Winata: [00:59:19] And that’s basically what it’s all about. That’s how brands are even made. And design is you think about the user, right? It’s not just about the product, but you think about the consumer. And so that’s why in 2023, that’s our thing, is like thinking about our customer and the whole customer experience journey, not just when they’re in studio but from start to finish, because that can dictate a lot about what you’re supposed to do.

Humberto Garcia: [00:59:43] And you’re like really good at it because you shifted during COVID for photo booths and you did virtual photo booths like before almost anyone, and you were like ranking nationally, not just like locally.

Caroline Winata: [00:59:56] So yeah, SEO is free. A lot of it is free and you can do it and it’s free. Why not? Like, I mean, to me that’s like amazing. It’s like Facebook groups, it’s free, you use it, you know, and there’s lots of education out there for it. I think YouTube is amazing. You can learn whatever you want to learn on it. And that’s I think we’re living in an amazing time where a lot of information is accessible to you and so take advantage of it.

Humberto Garcia: [01:00:24] Okay? Awesome. Um, yeah. Is there anything else? Let’s just say, you know, your cousin was going to get in the business. What advice piece? Last piece of advice you’d tell them that would change their lives.

Caroline Winata: [01:00:35] Um. Just put your head down and do it. Honestly, I think I’d have fun and. And be true to yourself. And it’s also funny that you said my cousin because I’m photographing her on Saturday. I’m photographing my cousin in Hawaii on Saturday. I haven’t seen her in a few years, so it’ll be awesome.

Humberto Garcia: [01:00:55] Where are you staying In Hawaii, by the way?

Caroline Winata: [01:00:57] Um, we are in Hauula, so we’re on the island of Oahu, but we’re, like, way off in, like, the north east shore. But we got an Airbnb like, over there. Um, we got an Airbnb that’s waterfront so that I can also do beach shots with our clients. So it’s going to be pretty amazing. I’m like, I’m super stoked. I’m so.

Speaker4: [01:01:20] Happy.

Humberto Garcia: [01:01:20] Is that near like the North Shore and like, the Polynesian Culture Center?

Speaker4: [01:01:24] It’s like.

Caroline Winata: [01:01:24] Past. Yeah, it’s like by the Polynesian Center between that and Koloa Ranch. So. Yeah.

Humberto Garcia: [01:01:31] Yeah, that’s really cool. Well, thank you so much. I learned a lot from you, and I hope this story inspires others.

Speaker4: [01:01:40] And by the way.

Caroline Winata: [01:01:41] For having me here.

Humberto Garcia: [01:01:42] No. And by the way, like, you know, definitely need to highlight the fact that, you know, the chronic illness that you’ve had and it hasn’t stopped you, even though it might have hindered a little bit. So it’s super inspiring to hear that.

Caroline Winata: [01:01:55] Thank you. Yeah, it’s just now it’s like a challenge how I can beat that. It’s like it’s another puzzle.

Humberto Garcia: [01:02:01] So I will say that when I was in speaking of Hawaii, when I was in Hawaii, I got awful time of my life, but I got pinkeye and I couldn’t see both. My eyes were like, completely shut. And I’m telling you, I, I, I’d never gotten pinkeye. And I never really been, like, without my sight. But literally, my eyes were shut at points. Like it was just super blurry. Even when I wanted to focus, I would, like, run saline through my eyes and my eyes wouldn’t focus. And I just prayed every night. I was just like, Please, I will do anything for my health. Back. Like the one thing that, you know, you think you want these material things and it’s like, no, like having your health. When you start losing it, you start realizing like, that is such a huge blessing. Even the basic take for granted.

Speaker4: [01:02:48] Yeah. Think.

Caroline Winata: [01:02:50] Being diagnosed was actually a super huge blessing for me because it really made me be intentional with my life and what my priorities and my values are and who the people that were really important to me. So it’s been it’s been great. I’m like, I’m not whining.

Humberto Garcia: [01:03:08] And by the way, I wasn’t comparing my temporary to your Chronic. No, no, no.

Speaker4: [01:03:12] Don’t feel that way.

Caroline Winata: [01:03:13] I think that’s a great story because people forget that something as simple as eyes, you just take it for granted until you have pinkeye. You know, and I think that’s awful, so.

Humberto Garcia: [01:03:22] Yeah, well, hopefully I’ll be back there soon. And don’t take too many waves without me there and.

Caroline Winata: [01:03:30] All right.

Speaker4: [01:03:31] Thank you. All right. Thanks.

Humberto Garcia: [01:03:32] We’ll keep in touch by.



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